I love (in a dark humor kind of way) to read certain professional articles that advise how to live with a passive aggressive man. I roll my eyes when they talk about the ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ way to approach him, because of the fear that supposedly drives a passive aggressive man. This supposed fear sure looks and smells an awful lot like entitlement.
How else could he be so resentful? How could he behave badly, behave in uncaring and selfish ways, know that he does, know that it hurts me, and yet still view himself as the victim?
I’m not saying he doesn’t have a heart. I’m not saying he doesn’t have a conscience. I’m saying that over the years, there have been countless times when he’s behaved in ways that have caused me to hurt, he knows that I’m hurting, he knows he caused it, and it doesn’t seem to cause him to feel sad or distressed… or well… hurt. It doesn’t seem to have much impact on him. If I try to hold him accountable, if I try to ask him why, or if I try to discuss it, he’ll usually get angry.
He gets offended that I’m offended by his offending me. I think it bores and annoys him.
I don’t think he behaves in passive aggressive ways because he’s afraid. He doesn’t behave like he’s afraid. He behaves like he’s irritated, resentful, cool and uncaring.
I think when he lies, it’s because he doesn’t want to deal with something. I think he withholds affection and intimacy because he wants to punish me, and in that space of time, he wants me to hurt.
And hey, no matter what drives him, he still has a brain that can override what he might irrationally feel if he just chose to act on what he knows is right instead of his emotions.
He doesn’t always behave in hurtful ways. He can also behave in sweet and helpful ways when he chooses to. Sometimes he behaves so well for such a long time, or just seems so darn normal and easy to love. I always feel this twist of painful wishing and wonder why he can’t just keep behaving in a way that would build a great life together.
Why does he hurt me then? How can he just ignore me when I’m depleted and dragging? Because he’s afraid and in pain? I have no doubt that his childhood was impacted by his abusive father, but I don’t think that’s why he can behave at times as though he just doesn’t care if I’m hurting. I think it’s because he lacks care. I see no struggle with fear in his eyes or demeanor. His covert and emotional abuse has the scent of petty resentment, not the scent of fear.
Kind of like a Grinch whose heart needs to grow, but he’s the one who has to want it.
my life in pajamas 
Your post illustrates the confusing and contradicting behaviors of PA . My head was spinning reading your thoughts. First of all, I had to laugh at the first sentence. I rolled my eyes too……I guess that makes us both PA……hehehehe!
You say that you believe your husband has a conscience and a heart and yet he doesn’t seem concerned that he’s hurt you. That doesn’t sound like someone with a conscience or a heart.
I believe that all people- even the worst kind- having some redeeming qualities. I don’t believe that Norman is all bad. He rescues wildlife and takes little boys fishing and cries at funerals. He’s very good at maintaining and routinely polishing his public image. He would make an excellent politician. He knows how to work a crowd and get the votes he needs. Life would be much less confusing if Norman was always an arrogant, selfish jerk and I’d get a lot of validation from others that he was a jerk. But, Norman is a very caring man to people when it’s convenient for him and when there is a good opportunity for him to score accolades. He doesn’t need to impress me. He hasn’t needed to impress me since the day we married.
I do think these guys are very insecure and afraid in the same way that a narcissist lives with fear or the same fear that the bully in school had. No one ever sees the fear because they have to hide it and they do that by displaying an entirely different image. By evolutionary standards, they are actually quite fit for survival but in civilized unions, they can’t function well. The more they have at stake to lose, the less likely they will continue to invest. The longer we stay with them, the more they inadvertently invest ( whether they want to or not) and the more hardened and PA they become. Time doesn’t heal their wounds, it only makes them worse! They fear being abandoned, fear being shamed and humiliated, fear being alone, fear being unloved. So, it’s easier for them to invest in low risk shallow relationships and keep us compartmentalized away from their heart.
When we see someone in pain, then the call to duty for most of us would be that we naturally want to invest all that we have to give to comfort someone. When these men see us in pain, it’s like an evacuation alarm goes off warning them to run. What would happen if they actually cared and invested their heart and got shamed in some way?
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EXACTLY! AMEN, PJs! If I were going to quote and highlight the parts of your post that really grabbed me, I would have to do the whole thing!!! I will try to limit myself, though. You said: “This supposed fear sure looks and smells an awful lot like entitlement.” and “And hey, no matter what drives him, he still has a brain that can override what he might irrationally feel if he just chose to act on what he knows is right instead of his emotions.” Exactly!!! But his brain won’t override his irrationality or his “fearful” emotions because the issue is his mind, not his fear.
I have referenced an article I had read and wanted to share here when I found it again. What I wanted to share about it is what you have posted today! I know the name Lundy Bancroft has come up before (on another PA blog if not this one) as an author that deals with abuse. Well, the following is from an April 23, 2012 post at notunderbondage.blogspot.com, which is a Barbara Roberts site (an old one, I think). She has a book called “Not Under Bondage” about abuse and divorce. The quote is from a transcript of a video of a Lundy Bancroft presentation. This particular bit is about the abuser’s mentality. It opposes the notion that the abuser is acting out of his pain and fear and supports the view that it is his mentality. The quote leans on more overt examples of abuse, but I think we all know by now that we can apply the same principle to covert abuse.
“What I’ve discovered from my years of working with abusers is that my clients didn’t turn out to be in any special pain They certainly didn’t look to me like they were in any more pain than non-abusive men. I’ve certainly known plenty of non-abusive men who have lived very painful lives for all kinds of reasons and I’ve had a lot of clients who were absolutely top-dog, I mean everything was going great for them, they were making lots of money, they were popular, everyone liked them, except us and the women who had to live with them of course, and often their children.
The abuser works this stuff, to some extent consciously, to some extent unconsciously, but it doesn’t really matter, in fact whether it is conscious or unconscious, the point is he works this stuff. He works getting people to feel sorry for him, he works playing himself as a very tormented individual, and once he has he has got you in there, he works quickly into getting you to think about her as the cause of his torment. And we’ll see that again in one of the snippets, in one of the media selections we’ll be looking at today.
So if it’s not about his inner pain, what’s it about?
It’s about his mentality.
The abuser’s problem is actually not very much located in his feeling world. Psychologically, there’s been some really interesting research that’s been done particularly by a researcher named Ed Gondolf – psychologically he turns out not to be very different from non-abusers, minor differences but not very much, he’s much more different in his values and attitudes, his mentality.
A very interesting study was done that looked at boys of batterers and their process of growing up to become abusers themselves, because a lot of them grow up to become abusers of women themselves, and two different studies, well actually there’s a third, that have compared: Is it the way these boys are wounded growing up that’s leading them to become batterers, or is the way that they’re being indoctrinated?
And all three of these studies came to the conclusion that the emotional effects didn’t turn out to be statistically to be good explanations of why they became perpetrators. The emotional effects caused all kinds of other problems, it’s not that they didn’t cause serious problems, they did, but they didn’t cause out to be what causes perpetration in the next generation, when they reach adulthood, it’s the indoctrination. In other words, what all three of these studies have found is that boys who don’t buy into the abuser’s ways of thinking, who don’t look down on women, who don’t become really oriented towards domination, who aren’t contemptuous, who aren’t superior, who don’t make all kinds of excuses for their violence, actually interestingly, don’t turn out to have any higher rate of becoming an abuser than boys who grew up in non-violent homes.
In other words, you growing up around a batterer does not increase your chance of becoming a batterer yourself except to the extent that you take on your dad’s mentality.
So the problem is in his mind, not his heart.
And I’m going to give you a four minute version of what’s normally a two hour discussion but the key points in his mentality are:
He believes in his right to rule, not necessarily in all fronts of his life but when it comes to a partner, he believes in his right to rule. He’s going to control her in all kinds of ways that usually don’t involve violence and this is one of the points that I think is important to get, you don’t have to use direct physical intimidation a lot. If you use it once in a while, that’s enough to keep people really cautious around you and then you can control them in all kinds of other ways. So day to day life with an abuser is not usually about outright violence or outright rape, it’s usually about being demeaning, being degraded, being told what you can do, being told what you can’t do, having your self-confidence undermined, being made to feel stupid and so forth.
A huge percentage of my clients, and I didn’t keep statistics of this but the stories were just there over and over and over again during the years I was working with abusers, they were using the woman’s workplace in one way or another as part of the venue for his abuse.
I learned about this from the women but sometimes my clients would directly admit it, constant phone calls, calling her five, ten fifteen times a day at work, making it very hard for her to get any work done and also making her start to have a lot of annoyance and upset of the part of her employer because their irritation at all of these phone calls is going towards her. Showing up unexpectedly at work to make her feel unsafe, injuring her in ways that were causing her to miss work. Causing her so much emotional turmoil through tearing her down that she couldn’t concentrate at work, couldn’t get much done. Becoming particularly difficult if she were starting to do well at work, in other words, he liked it when she was bringing in money, but he doesn’t like it if her works starts to be a source of a lot of pride, or it starts to look like she is going to really advance, or it might help her to become independent, cause that could mean independent of him, so he gets particularly disruptive in a way, the better she’s doing, the more it’s really starting to go somewhere. And I could give you lots of other examples. The workplace is so often an important aspect of how he’s going after her and how he’s affecting her.
The abuser really sees himself as superior to his partner and he believes he is entitled to a relationship that works completely on his terms and that he’s entitled to all kinds of double standards. There’s a completely different set of rules [for him as compared to her].
end of transcript.”
I can’t comment a lot right now other than to share this because I am not feeling well, but to me this is huge and the more time goes by, the more my PA man proves this true. Entitlement. Mentality.
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Hope you feel better soon!
Interesting information! I will read it again but what comes to mind at the moment is that I agree that ( at least part of) the problem is the learned mentality and a mind problem but when we say ‘ heart’ don’t we mean that part of the brain responsible for understanding how actions produce consequences, expressing empathy and having a conscience ( pre-frontal cortex)?
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Exodus, thank you for your kindness. I am just so drained…
I think I understand your question about heart/brain/mind. Right off, I would answer it, yes. Bancroft says the problem is in his mind, not his heart. I have not read any of Bancroft’s books, but I think some of the issue is just word choice and semantics. I wonder how many of us mean different things when we say mind, brain, heart, soul, spirit, etc. I myself don’t see a mind problem as a brain problem. I see a mind problem and a mentality problem as a heart issue. The principles in the article are what I was going after. He mentions mentality, values and attitudes. To me those are heart issues, but Bancroft seems to focus on pain and feelings as heart issues. Labels aside, what I have been seeing in my own PA man (“Gregory”) is that there are some very disconcerting values and attitudes – a very disturbing mentality.
PJs entitled this post, “The reason he hurts me.” I believe (generally speaking) they hurt us because we don’t really matter. I don’t think that deep down Gregory loves me and wants what is best for me or that he longs for intimate, reciprocal relationship with me and that he is just in so much pain from his childhood and so confused about how to interact with me that he does this instead. I think deep down he wanted someone to fill a role that would enable him to go after what he wanted in life and very definitely to give him a little microcosm in which he could rule. He is deeply entitled and has put that on display repeatedly, even more so recently. He has no concern for my health or my survival, much less my hopes and frustrations and fulfillment. He is concerned that I get back in my place and stay there. He is the consummate actor if the pretense achieves a goal or presents an image. I believe he looks down on women. This is his mentality, but I would also label it a heart issue. He does not love me. I do not know if he loves anyone, period. He shows little conscience though he mimics it out of protection over his image. All this to say, what I think Bancroft means by not a heart issue is – it’s not because he is a tormented soul. He is not feeling any special pain that is driving him to act this way. He is not all that conflicted internally. The only real discomfort is when control is threatened. I am going on and on, I know, but this is a pivotal thing to me. He is not a victim, and he is not suffering all that much.
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OMG! I agree with you sooo much Seeing The Light!! Yes! I don’t feel PA Man is in any pain! I believe he’s happy when I go along with whatever he wants and I keep my mouth shut…he feels VERY threatened by me because I’m a strong woman, and I give it right back to him!!
He told our therapist that he was “intimidated” by me…this after the therapist asked him if he felt intimidated…and PA Man latched on to that! I later asked PA Man just HOW did I intimidate him, because the stupid therapist never asked him that, after he agreed I intimidate him!!
PA Man told me it’s because I’m so well read, that I know things most people don’t! So I guess if I was half illiterate he’d be less intimidated?? Well excuse me! PA Man has all the opportunities that I have to read and educate himself on different subjects!!
But I guess he prefers a DUMB woman so he feels better about himself…and that’s what he told me about the Cow he had the emotional affair with….that she was “boring” and talked about stupid stuff all the time?!?
You wrote “He shows little conscience though he mimics it out of protection over his image.” EXACLY!! At church….he loving, affectionate, etc….the older woman who sets behind us asked if we were newlyweds for Pete’s sake!!! I almost threw up!!
And this “He has no concern for my health or my survival, much less my hopes and frustrations and fulfillment. He is concerned that I get back in my place and stay there. He is the consummate actor if the pretense achieves a goal or presents an image.”
Yes, YES!!! This IS PA Man!! I’ve seen this repeatedly since I found out about the affair….I was a crying, slobbering, clinging mess, begging him to hold me, to help me understand and he’d just turn around and walk out of the room…BECAUSE it HURT him SOOOO much to see me that way!! Right! He walked away because he could care less how much he hurt me! He doesn’t love me…not at all…and if he does, it’s a sick kind of love and I deserve better!!
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Lonely,
Sigh….oh boy. It’s always the same BS selfish nonsense isn’t it?
The thing I know about these men and their other women and even just other people in general is that they will put them on a pedestal at one point ( like your PA man did with the cow) but once they commit their immoral crime or realize that they have ticked us off or hurt us, they come back and flatter us by putting the others down. I know that if Norman is doing this to others then he also putting me down to gain sympathy or affection from others. Initially, these guys choose people/women that will challenge and flatter them but ultimately want a dumb woman or friend that won’t threaten them. Norman tells me that he loves me because I’m so smart and talented but punishes me for being either of those things – same thing your man does to you. We aren’t allowed to exist except as their shadow. The only time they put us in the spotlight is in public when we can make them look good.
The mimicking that you wrote about…yes, that’s a very accurate description of their manipulative behavior. Norman knows that a person is supposed to react a certain way under certain circumstances and that’s all he does. But, at home, with me, he doesn’t apply the same rules because he doesn’t need to. He doesn’t have to be nice to me unless I have something that he needs or wants.
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Exodus, you said: “Initially, these guys choose people/women that will challenge and flatter them but ultimately want a dumb woman or friend that won’t threaten them.” Yes. There really is an irrationality to their expectations. They want to have their cake and eat it, too. They are drawn to strong, intelligent women, women that challenge them, the kind of woman whose flattering opinion of them is a compliment to them. Then those same qualities become a problem because they feel threatened by them. They also can’t keep up the facade that had her flattering him in the first place. So they have to bring the woman down, punish her like you said, and try to milk what they can out of her positive qualities publicly.
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Lonelywife, PA men and therapy are a bad mix. I can totally see him latching on to the first concept that he could use to excuse himself and blame you for something. It’s like they want us smart because that might benefit them or because it makes a worthy target somehow, but they want us dumb so they can feel superior. Whatever. Mine tried therapy a few times when he was totally backed into a corner and the only thing he came away with was that he should try harder to get his way (I wonder if he mis-understood the therapist?!) Who knows?
Mine used to walk right past me while I was sitting up crying in the dark (and he knew it) and hop into bed and start snoring. No, that’s not love.
You do deserve better.
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Seeing, I’m beginning to realize how ‘dangerous’ therapy can become for the spouses of PA abusers. I never thought about this in such depth as I currently am. I mean, I knew that it’s easy to con a therapist but what I missed was how the information that a therapist may provide can be used to escalate anger & arrogance, provide justification for retaliation. The validation that they receive from their therapist stimulates those dopamine ( pleasure) receptors in the their brain to such a degree that they become even more excited when they punish which then increases their cravings- needing to impose even more. I think we should examine the possible dangers of therapy. It’s become very clear now why my therapist refused to see Norman and what she meant when she told me that she thought it was a really bad idea.
I also watched a video yesterday by two psychologists that were talking about PA abuse and the one doctor said that it’s extremely important that the therapist have a lot of experience in PA abuse and borderline PA and narcissism otherwise the therapy can cause problems for the victims.
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Seeing, I know you’re drained. ( hugs). Being drained is absolutely the worst. I wish I could say something to cheer you up. I’ve been trying to be very gentle on myself and take breaks when necessary and not put so much pressure on myself lately. Sometimes I just need a ” day off” to rest my mind and recharge. Give yourself a break. Drink some tea and listen to some nice music and read something positive.
I agree that we don’t matter to our spouses. I wrote to Bronze how I’ve come to realize that I’m not perceived as a feeling human being to Norman but mostly just a safe person/thing to abuse. I never wrote about this before but about 1.5 years into our marriage, I got pregnant and I had a horrible miscarriage. I woke up one morning very sick and was in horrible pain. I woke up Norman and told him that something was terribly wrong. I was vomiting, bleeding and in horrible pain and he got up, asked what was wrong ( though his attention was on getting dressed and he barely even looked at me on the bathroom floor, got dressed and I thought he was going to take me to the hospital. Nope. He was leaving for work. For real. Once I realized this, I began crying and feeling sorry for myself- trying to make sense of Norman’s behavior, questioning my life, my marriage and all the while trying to deal with a miscarriage. He finally acknowledged me – probably because he had to brush his teeth or something. I could tell that he was annoyed with me as if this was my fault but then he said very politely, ‘ What would you like me to do?” I said, ‘ nothing just let me rest for a while’ and after he left for work, I called an ambulance they took me to the hospital and I was there all day by myself. I wasn’t being a martyr. I truly, at that point, did not want him even near me and in hindsight, I’m so glad that I didn’t beg him to care for me. He would boast for an eternity how he cared for me. I came home in the early evening ( a friend of my mother’s picked me up at the hospital) and I had my meds and paperwork on the kitchen counter and get this, Norman came home and never said a word. Not a single word. As I write this, I feel ashamed that I didn’t acknowledge Norman’s behavior for what it was at the time. I knew his behavior was heinously selfish and abnormal but even so, I think that it was so truly evil that I couldn’t imagine that it was just that and I kept looking for some reasonable explanation for his lack of concern and I began making excuses for it like that he was just so stressed about work or that he was just ignorant about women’s health. Even worse, my brother called me that evening to see how I was doing and I just pretended that Norman was here for me the entire time and that he had helped me. I didn’t pretend with Norman’s family though. Norman’s mother told me in an effort to excuse her son’s rotten character, ‘ Well, men just don’t understand these things about women’.
I may not know much about autism but if I had a child with autism you can bet that I would most likely become an expert on the subject. Why? Because I have a sincere conscious concern for others which seems to be lacking in the Gregory and Norman.
The ‘ heart’ of the matter……let’s see. Philosophers debate where the human soul lives and then other more Jungian psychologists debate the differences between soul and spirit. It’s all interesting to examine. But, when I think of someone having heart, I think in terms of neurobiological brain function since emotions like empathy ( anterior insular cortex) and conscience are controlled by different centers of the brain. Of course, brain function can be enhanced or damaged by social conditioning as well. I agree that their value system and character is very flawed but I tend to believe that there is a neurobiological component that contributes to this. Some researchers believe that it’s entirely neurobiological and that social conditioning has no effect on morality. I guess it depends on a host of influencing factors. Anyway, here’s an interesting journal article on the neurobiology of morality: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3163302/
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Thank you, Exodus, for your kindness. I have been pushing a lot this summer to try to enjoy my time with my kids. Now it’s time to get things together to get back to school and I’m just used up. Once they are back in school, I can sit back and rest and relax but I’ve got a little ways to go. I know I really need to start being more gentle with myself, as well as letting myself rest even when there is work to do. I’ll try. I know I didn’t push this way beyond what is wise before Gregory.
Thank you for sharing about your pregnancy and miscarriage. That must have been a terrible experience. You are an amazing person who has survived so much. I understand that you didn’t want him near you during your suffering. When Gregory would play the part and take me to doctor’s appointments, it wasn’t done freely. There were PA guilt trips that he had to take off work. There was no empathy, no support. It ended up being worse that he could take credit for being there for me without being there for me. He was able to use information gathered to play the martyr with friends behind the scenes. During labor at the hospital he was on his laptop. When we had to take trips out of town for medical tests he spent all the free time on his computer working or on the telephone with work. All of this and he could still take the credit for being the supportive husband. Now I see why I felt so alone. I was. I am learning that I can go through trials alone because I was going through trials alone all the time.
You have made good points in your last paragraph, and I have read about half of the article you shared. It’s undeniable they can see what is going on in the brains of people like sociopaths. I know the brain plays a big role in all of this. My belief in God and His connection to morality; good and evil; and man’s free will and ability to choose, temper leaning entirely on the brain and environment (childhood influences, social conditioning, etc.). I have been doing a bit of reading on neuroplasticity and the ability to re-wire the brain. They are finding that our brains aren’t necessarily as irrevocably hard-wired as they used to think. Most recently I have been reading about the power of meditation to increase activity in the anterior cingulate and its relation to emotion and empathy. I don’t know. It really is a mystery to me.
I will say one thing. Whether they are this way by choice or for reasons outside their control, in my opinion, they have no right to marry. I still think it’s fraud. They are incapable of a marital relationship and have no right to make promises they can’t or won’t keep and then exercise entitlement over what they think they have a right to expect and receive. I know I sound stubborn or opinionated here, but it’s so deeply offensive to me and I fear for my children’s futures.
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Seeing, the summer has flown by! I was a bit panicked on tax-free day when I realized that school was starting soon because I take the kids at the shelter shopping for school supplies every year. I can’t do that this year though. I just don’t have the money. I may have to drop off some supplemental supplies or choose one or two kids this year who need extra help.
re: last paragraph..No, you don’t sound stubborn or opinionated. You sound like someone who has been deeply betrayed and who still has the resolve to seek a better life for herself and her children. It’s a horribly confusing, lonely, stressful and draining life we live in these marriages and I’m so glad that you still have that spark of life within you.
Researchers have discovered that our mental state can actually alter our DNA as well so it wouldn’t surprise me that we can alter our neuropathways of learning, feeling, etc..Maybe we could volunteer Gregory and Norman for a clinical study and earn some get-away money. 😀
I think a part of my brain has shut down just so I can get through this without falling apart. It’s like I’m numb. Maybe I’m turning into Norman 😦 I’m not sleeping well at the moment for some reason. I’m only getting maybe 4 hours a night and I wake up, pack some more, drink coffee, watch the dreadful news and go to work ( our business). The other morning I watched that HBO documentary about Diane Shuler and I got so upset because I saw so many redflags that indicated that she was married to a PA man. Have you seen that doc? Oh my gosh. It really upset me. In the doc, after the accident, Diane’s husband was whining about how he never wanted any kids and now that she’s dead he has to do everything. The lies and the family denial was too much!
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Exodus, thank you for the encouragement. Yes, the betrayal aspect is so much of it.
You keep making me laugh 🙂 I would love to sign them up for a clinical study! Maybe a two-year inpatient kind of thing? Just long enough for my neuropathways and my DNA to heal from the PTSD, chronic fatigue, etc 🙂 Hehehe. A girl can dream, huh?
I haven’t seen that documentary. The numbness might be a good thing. Probably a protective mechanism. I have no fear that you will ever turn into Norman. Fear not and keep plowing through. I don’t like hearing the sleep loss, though. Sleep is so important to every part of our health. I know it’s tough right now. Be good to yourself.
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I am very sorry about your miscarriage. I had a similar situation as yours except I had an ectopic pregnancy. Which is where the pregnancy takes place in your Fallopian tube. I remember being in so much pain and crying and I couldn’t figure out why. He left for work as well and told me to ” stop exaggerating “. At the time I thought maybe I was until I began vomiting and couldn’t stop. I drove myself to the emergency room and that is when they told me. They gave me abortion pills and told me I would be sick for a week or two. It was one of the saddest things that has ever happened to me. I never wanted any kids but I really sad because the way he behaved was much like your husband Norman just evil. I didn’t pretend that he was there for me and he didn’t pretend like he cared. Instead when I stayed home for a week he screamed at me for not cleaning and making his dinner. They really don’t care about us at all and I don’t buy the fact that they may have been mistreated as kids. At this point it isn’t my problem that you had a bad childhood.
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Oh Lost, I know what you went through. A friend of mine had an ectopic pregnancy as well and went through the same thing. I really feel for you because I know that those pills take a while to work and can keep you sick. Even so, having to go through all the emotional stuff is more than enough to deal with. I didn’t want children being married to Norman. I would have loved to have kids with someone else though. Norman wanted me to have kids…I’m not surprised in the least. Most narcissists want to propagate themselves all over the place. It makes them feel big. I’m so sorry that you had to go through all that alone. I know how you were feeling and it’s a terribly sad horrible experience. Your husband is selfish and evil. I call it what it is- evil. I don’t care what his disorder is or what caused it.
You’re right, it’s not up to us to fix whatever causes their disordered personality. It’s up to them to fix themselves and want to be honorable men. Obviously, they don’t want to because they have a character disorder.
I’ve done a lot of research on character and it seems that ‘normal’ humans are born with their character and an innate sense of right and wrong. That’s why not everyone who endured abuse turns out to be a criminal or abuser. Seems to me that guys like Norman and your guy ( Chuckie?) were born lacking any good character.
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Seeing, I hope you’re feeling better.
Lundy Bancroft has so much great stuff (love his book, Why Does He Do That?), thanks for sharing the excerpt!
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Thank you, PJs. I’m a little stronger today. I am just so drained and I wish I could sleep for about a month! I’m trying to hold out until the children are back in school 🙂
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That smile wasn’t about the children going back to school, by the way. I love having my kids home and am not looking forward to them being gone again. The smile was for the thought of uninterrupted time to rest, and maybe even nap.
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Seeing – for sure. I remember when we first got married, I was working at reception, he would call me to check that I was actually at work. At first I thought it was cute, but it grew to annoy my boss, I had to tell him to stop only to have him upset at me because I was actually doing my job. Later on in life, I became very good at my work and was promoted several times, started to make as much money as he did, but instead of being proud he was very very resentful, started to make all of kinds of excuses about why he wasn’t being promoted and he started to resent his co workers, then he would find way to prevent me for making more money that he did. He would undermine any job opportunities that would mean a promotion or more money for me. Last year I made more than he did, well you can imagine how that conversation went.
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I think the reason they hurt us is because they can and to exert some type of control over us. I feel drained today because I got in another ridiculous fight with my husband. I never know where he is or what time he will be coming home but he always expects me to know what he wants for dinner or make him something regardless. It is very annoying and makes me feel like a slave. But it often becomes a catch 22 because if I don’t make him something I end up being punished for it and if I try to call him to see what he would like to eat, he doesn’t answer the phone so it is still my fault. I tried calling him yesterday three or four times to see what he would like to eat and of course he didn’t answer. I was exhausted after standing on my feet for 8 hours at my new job at the bank. The last thing I wanted to do was cook. When he didn’t answer I sent him a text message saying that this is why I didn’t buy / cook for him because he didn’t answer the phone and if he was hungry it wasn’t my problem anymore. He texts me back instead of calling me about how he is moving motorcycles for some old woman and never mentions anything about dinner. I wait around for an hour to see if he comes home and when he does he burst into the house slams all of the doors and disappears. I find him outside cleaning someone else’s motorcycle and being an asshole. We started screaming at each other in the middle of the street and I could feel myself becoming crazy. He claimed that I was greedy and fat and only cared about filling up my stomach. It was totally irrational and crazy like ever fight I ever had with him. He once claimed that he would have more money if I wasn’t going around putting gas in my car and paying for the electricity bill. I mean how do you argue that? I eventually left and went and got my purse to go get my food. Of course I ran into him and he screamed out in the street order the whole menu fat ass. I just looked at him and got in my car. I was shaking so bad and my body temperature was so hot. I had to calm down because I was seeing red. I eventually went back inside and talked to a friend that calmed me down. She reminded me that I am losing weight and that I shouldn’t feel ashamed that I need to eat dinner. After all eating is a basic human function. I think they know they are hurting you and they like it. This whole encounter with him last night , he honestly seemed happy. Happy that he hurt me , happy that he diminished my weight loss efforts, happy that I wouldn’t enjoy my dinner, and happy that he caused some type of chaos. I am sure this sign was just an excuse to justify him not going to a concert this week that he said he would go to. I am going anyway. So now I don’t think they care about us. I think they care about what we do for them and when we don’t do it , that is what they care about.
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Oh Lost, it really concerns me what you’re dealing with. That bit: “I never know where he is or what time he will be coming home but he always expects me to know what he wants for dinner or make him something regardless. It is very annoying and makes me feel like a slave. But it often becomes a catch 22 because if I don’t make him something I end up being punished for it and if I try to call him to see what he would like to eat, he doesn’t answer the phone so it is still my fault. ”
……I went through that every single day and I mean EVERY SINGLE DAY
Right now, i don’t do anything for Norman anymore. I eat early in the evening and I eat what I want and I don’t worry about him. If he doesn’t respect the fact that I have to plan and prepare a meal and that I get hungry too and could be sitting here wondering when I should eat, then he can do it himself.
You have a job ..Be thankful for that!! Seriously. Use that job to help you get out of there. Be positive about your job, don’t let Chuckie interfere with your attitude and bring you down. Don’t engage with him in the fights. I know how hard it is to take their SH&& and be disrespected and demoralized every day. Trust me. I know! But, you already know that this guy has a problem and you don’t need anymore proof. He is what he is and you have the opportunity to get out and start over. I’m so glad that you have a job!
Focus on yourself and focus on secretly making plans to leave. Don’t threaten him with leaving. Just start saving money and making plans. Even if it’s a year from now, you’re at least doing that. Chuckie is going to sabotage everything good for you…..your job, your diet..everything. Don’t waste your hope in this man. Put your hope in your own future without him.
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lost7648, you said: “I think the reason they hurt us is because they can and to exert some type of control over us.” Amen to that. Like you mentioned later, I think you are right. I think it does make them happy. You also said: “So now I don’t think they care about us. I think they care about what we do for them and when we don’t do it , that is what they care about.” Absolutely. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you feel like a slave. I am so sorry that you have to go through all this.
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PJ – I don’t think he behaves in passive aggressive ways because he’s afraid. He doesn’t behave like he’s afraid. He behaves like he’s irritated, resentful, cool and uncaring. – You’re right again.
I’ve often wondered if he actually liked me, never mind love me, just like. At some point during our marriage I just assumed he couldn’t. How could you hurt someone that you “claimed” to love so much that it hurt and then turn around and yell at the top of lungs at her. That’s not love – that’s abuse. Enough said about that.
And the lies, well, at first I never saw them, I just assumed that what he said was the truth, but at some point, lies become more and more complicated and people start to fall between the cracks of their lies and things get messed up and people find out. I did. The lies are small and stupid and meaningless but he still tells them and I catch him on them all the time now, and he gets MAD as hell, then he’ll retreat within himself and then another lie comes up… the merry go round never stops and the truth is never told. Frustrating.
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